Writing Stuff:
Another, rare “Friends Only” post. I must be feeling furtive.
Four critiques from Critters so far. It’s been a mixed bag. I’m trying to be introspective-ish and determine whether I’m feeling argumentative or if I just hit two in a row that were abnormally ucky. Typically, I rattle off a fairly short, neutral “thank you” to my critiques regardless of what they say (unless I know the person or they say something interesting or their critique was particularly helpful, in which case my “thank you”s are often longer and chatty). But this time, I took up arms not once but TWICE. Not because I had problems with what they said in their critiques regarding whether they liked something, or whether the story worked for them, but because one of them was wrong and the other seemed either terribly misguided or terribly judgmental.
One critter informed me that I should decrease my use of adverbs. Now, “less is more with adverbs” is a philosophy I agree with, and espouse. But then he went on to point out instances of my “adverb” usage to illustrate his point. To whit:
“The words hung like gossamer threads before fading away.”
Do you see an adverb in there? I don’t. He took issue with the “like gossamer threads” part. That isn’t an adverb; it’s a simile. My similes, metaphors, symbolism, and analogies are intentional, often carefully and painstakingly crafted constructs. They ain’t no adverbs.
Okay, English grammar is confusing. I’ve had people say dumber things in critiques, no biggie. But then he went on to say that I overused personal pronouns and it was a “woman thing” to do so. The sentence in question: “She stroked a paw over her soft ear.” This critter thought I should change “her” to “the.” Aside from the character in question (a rabbit), there’s a bear and a roomful of men in this room. I think I’m well within my rights to point out whose ear is being stroked. Fine, he didn’t agree. But it’s girlie to use personal pronouns? WTF?
Then I got a critique from someone who apparently had some major issues with the subject matter. I did warn at the very top that there was “Mention of graphic violence and child abuse” in it–yes, in my bunny and bear story. It’s also clearly labeled as horror. But she read it anyway. Her comments:
“It’s well-suited to a dark fantasy-horror publication, one with a readership that craves twisted tales of abuse and murder. Hopefully in such a magazine, it would serve as a catharsis to whatever antisocial urges the readers possess, and not as a springboard propelling those with pre-existing psychological and/or sexual aberrations to justify re-enacting the depressing deeds -i.e. rape as entertainment – herein described.”
I got the implication here that she thinks that all readers (and writers) of horror and dark fantasy are sickos who have antisocial urges and “pre-existing psychological and/or sexual aberrations” that they unleash by reading/writing, which otherwise they’d slake in some less socially acceptable manner. *blink*
Maybe I’m reading too much into these critiques, but they served to miff me. I haven’t sent my responses yet. I’m sitting on them until I’m certain I want to. Normally I consider myself thick-skinned when it comes to both feedback and rejection. Is it me, or did I coincidentally run into two extremes in a row?
No, I think you ran into two morons in a row. One of them needs to learn some rules of grammar, and the other needs to learn to tell the difference between plastering everything with her own point of view, and giving a reasoned critique of a story. If she doesn’t like horror and it upsets her, she shouldn’t critique it – she can hardly be said to be a reasoned, objective critic.
Oh, whew. It’s not just me taking it personally. It’s hard to be sure in cases like this. Thanks for the validation!
I don’t think it’s you–those do both sound terribly offensive to me. I mean, there’s being thick-skinned to advice you don’t want to hear, and then there’s when someone is just insulting. I’m sure if it were my work that got those critiques, I’d be even more miffed. And I was shocked by those as it is.
Maybe they colluded and sent you horrid things very intentionally. Because, come to think of it, it seems like the same sort of ignorance would breed ideas like the use of personal pronouns being feminine and that horror writers want to do or encourage the things they write about.
I always take 24 hours, at least, to write a reply to anything that either shocks me or pisses me off so badly that I see red. So I think that is what you should do here. And just remember that I’m sure they will be glad if you’re bothered enough by their comments to yell at them. These kind of people feed off negative energy. It’s what makes them so damned effective at the horribleness they do.
“Maybe they colluded and sent you horrid things very intentionally“
I’d be tempted to think so too, except one of them is a member in another of my writers groups. He’s a new member, so I don’t know him very well. Another member vouched for him. Thus far, I’m terribly unimpressed, but I don’t think he’d go in cahoots with another Critter to be vicious. Because of the whole other member vouching thing, I really want to give him the benefit of the doubt, but damn it’s hard.
one of them is a member in another of my writers groups. He’s a new member, so I don’t know him very well. Another member vouched for him.
Yeek! E-mail me privately?
This feedback does indeed sound useless at best, hurtful at worst. Out of context, though, I’d be loath to judge. Once upon a time, I felt that someone wrote me a rather brusque critique, and I avoided him because I remembered that reaction. When I went back to the crit more than a year later, it suddenly didn’t seem that bad at all. I even ended up quoting from it, I believe, in another workshop.
As you know, horror isn’t my bag, but you have me pretty damn curious about this story now!
::strokes you:: Stay cool. You’re a great writer, and everybody knows it. Maybe these folks are jealous. 😉
Email launched. *foom*
I’ve had a bit of time to chill. I wasn’t livid, just miffed, but a few deep breaths has helped to no end.
no, i’d’ve been miffed too.
i could make a harsh blanket statement like, “both of those people are morons … ” but i won’t. i want to … but i won’t.
Yep yep. I don’t want to assume they’re both blithering dolts too, but damn they’re not making it easy for me.
The hell?
Since when is writing about something mean that you secretly want to do it, or reading about something mean you might just go out and do it?
Jesus H.
And how can one call themself a reviewer if they don’t know what a bleedin’ similie is?
And personal pronouns are, you know, an English thing. They present and describe where and to whom things are being done. It’s not a “woman thing”, it’s probably just something this moron associates that “women do this, thus it must be a woman thing” and he has no clue.
I mean, there are language usage differences between men and women, but I don’t think using personal pronouns is one of them.
So far, the writing and critiquing abilities of this individual have left me thinking words like “inferior,” “deficient,” and “abysmal” about him. Now there’s some pretty bad writing and critiquing in Critters (and some pretty damn good too), but these two really are scraping the bottom.
That’s pretty funked up, E.
Strange, strange people.
You said it
.
Re: the crits you’ve received so far — there are some seriously stupid people on Critters. I think I may have been recently critted by your “adverb” hater, because I got the same thing; a critique full of dings against adverbs and everything he/she thought might be an adverb, even if it wasn’t. Nothing else substantive in the critique. I get the impression this person has recently read a book or article on how to write, and the bit about adverbs is the only part that stuck in his/her head.
I’ve already done my crit for this week, and it took me several hours because it was a doozy, but if I get some free time at work tomorrow I’ll try to take a look at yours.
Re: the person who had a problem with your content — there are some people who believe certain subjects should never be dealt with in fiction. It’s simply too personal/sensitive for them; they can’t suspend disbelief no matter how good a job you do of fictionalizing the situation. Heck, the very act of fictionalizing is an affront to these people, because AFATC “fictionalizing” = “trivializing,” and even if that wasn’t what you intended that’s what they bring into it. I ran into this problem when I ran a story through Critters a few years ago which was set in the medieval era, when adolescence as a concept didn’t exist and marriage often happened at a scandalously young age. Half the critiques I got were from people incensed not because my 14-year-old male character had sex, but because he *enjoyed* it. They felt that I should have depicted it as a horrifying molestation because AFATwereC that’s the only way minors’ sexual experiences should ever be depicted. I got the impression these people didn’t even see my story; they were simply reliving their own experiences, or visualizing their children in the same position, or thinking of the Catholic priest scandal, etc. For these people, writers who fictionalize rape etc. must think rape isn’t all that bad. Maybe they’re even rapists themselves. And people who read fictional depictions of rape are always, no matter how sane or emotionally healthy, at risk of turning into child molesters. For them, that’s all there is to it.
There’s nothing you can say to these people. The adverb-hater is clueless and will probably just get angry if you point out the flaws in his critique, no matter how gently you do it. The last time I tried to do that with a critter, we ended up in a bitching match, reporting each other to Andrew — it was a big waste of time and energy. The other critter will never be convinced that she’s wrong because she’s on the (she believes) moral high ground. You can’t argue critiquing form when she’s arguing morality. They’re two completely different battles.
Bottom line: do you believe either of these people, if probed further, could offer more information to help you improve your story? If so, reply to them. If not, don’t bother. You’ve got better things to do.
“I get the impression this person has recently read a book or article on how to write, and the bit about adverbs is the only part that stuck in his/her head.“
Hah! That’s funny. This critter cited Stephen King’s On Writing as their “adverbs bad” source.
“if I get some free time at work tomorrow I’ll try to take a look at yours“
Oh, I’d love to get your input, but don’t feel obligated if you don’t have the time. I don’t expect to be hurting for crits.
“Bottom line: do you believe either of these people, if probed further, could offer more information to help you improve your story? If so, reply to them. If not, don’t bother. You’ve got better things to do.“
Bottom line, no I don’t think these folks have anything useful to say ’bout this. But I feel obligated to respond to the first guy (the adverb guy). He’s in another of my writers groups, a new member. He needs to know what an adverb is. I owe it to the other members of the group, and besides, one of the others would have to call him on it if I don’t, assuming he keeps giving out the same lame ass advice. And I need to tell him that I won’t tolerate sexism in my crits. Normally I wouldn’t bother, but since he’s a new member in a closer writers group, I’ll be corresponding with him in the future, and if I don’t bring it up now, it’ll fester. And he’ll probably end up pissing me off and it’ll blow up bigger and uglier
.
But it’s girlie to use personal pronouns? WTF?
::rolls eyes:: Well, that would have invalidated the entire review for me. You’re a sexist? Well, that shows what kind of judgment you have. Next!
I got the implication here that she thinks that all readers (and writers) of horror and dark fantasy are sickos who have antisocial urges and “pre-existing psychological and/or sexual aberrations” that they unleash by reading/writing, which otherwise they’d slake in some less socially acceptable manner. *blink*
Could you catch my eyeballs? I rolled them too hard. I think they’re under your chair.
*scampers after rolling orbs*
Are these yours? No? Dang, there’s a lot of loose eyeballs from this thread.
Disregard both of them, they’re idiots. I have several people in my private online crit group who have had several similar experiences before they came to me, some of them at critters.
Metaphor and simile are very necessary and desireable for fiction as it aids visualization.
The other individual was a maroon, as Bugs Bunny would say. I’m certain she would be even more horrified if she read my material.
“I’m certain she would be even more horrified if she read my material.“
Heh, undoubtedly
. I’d count this particular story as quite mild on the whole horror spectrum. She’d probably have an aneurysm if she encountered any really squicky horror. I just don’t get why she read it in the first place. I mean it was clearly labeled with warnings and everything. Humph.
heeeeeeeeee–
this makes me think of a critique I did like a week or two back. I felt kind of bad, because I always try to find something good to say about a story–but this was basically an entire story about a child growing up in such a screwed-up family situation it couldn’t possibly have any kind of basis in reality…and there are those of us out there who have a basis for comparison. I couldn’t do much more than offer technical advice on the fact that a six-year-old child would have a difficult time getting an ice-pick into a grown man’s skull, even if he was standing above him and the adult was drunk or otherwise extremely distracted.
I think you made the right call on both of these:
1. If you’re going to offer grammatical criticism, you’d damn well better be right. (Stylistic criticism can be attributed to taste, or the lack thereof, but there are objective rules of grammar.)
2. The purpose of a writing group is to provide criticism of the stories, not to provide moral criticism of the people who read and write the stories.
Thanks. I totally agree with you.
I’ve encountered critters before who gave well-meaning but incorrect grammatical advice, but this was exceptionally wrong.
You could condescendingly tell the first person that if they have a problem with adjuncts, they could at least try to use the right word. But perhaps I’m just assuming that they’re smart enough to know the right word.
I suspect if I tried to explain it, they’d end up more confused. Going to try to point out the difference between and adverb and a simile and see if that penetrates. But I’m glad I don’t have any money riding on it!
What some people fail to remember who do critiques is..you aren’t asking them if they accept the subject matter with which you write..but how the story reads. It’s not a preach time, it’s a critique. Some people confuse the two..which is silly. If you didn’t care for the subject matter..don’t bother with the critique..it doesn’t help you or them.
I laugh at anyone who says that “personal pronouns” has now been stereotyped with a specific gender. They must be stuck in some weird time warp. That’s really and serious lame..she said. lol.
I would just say something like “I appreciate the comments” and ignore them personally. It’s not even worth a debate or commenting over. Obviously they should move on to some other form of critcial entertainment and leave your stories alone.
“I would just say something like “I appreciate the comments” and ignore them“
Normally, I would. But this guy is a new member in another of my smaller, private online writers groups. I sort of think that every member in that group ought to know what an adverb is, and if they don’t, someone should tell them. And also I need to tell him that sexism in crits pisses me off or I’ll never be able to function within this group with him in it. Blah.
Ridiculous. One of the reasons I dropped out of critters was all the lame advice. Unfortunately, the other reason was that it takes me months to write a story, so I would have had to critique about a hundred for each one I got critiqued. I figure I may return once I find myself with more time to write, or if that never happens then once I’ve built up a stockpile of stories so I can send one in every few weeks for a worthwhile period of time…
Well, hell… Now I’m going to have to read something on Critters…;)
Well, it will keep me from getting dropped, I guess:).
With the sexist idiot, send a message to aburt and have him take care of it. Because if the guy does it to you, he does it to everyone. And he needs a serious slapdown, which aburt will provide.
For the other one, send her your standard “thanks” and I’m going to ignore you message, with the caveat that she should probably avoid critiquing horror if she has difficulty with such standard subject matter (child abuse, etc).
Oh, and you might send a note to the moderator of your other group if there is one. S/he should probably be aware that the guy might be a problem.
re-enacting the depressing deeds -i.e. rape as entertainment
OK, I just find it odd that the person gets all in a tizzy about the subject matter to then refer to “rape as entertainment” as merely “depressing deeds.” Granted, I’m baffled by the person’s response anyway, but I’d think that if one actually thought that a story was going to cause people to start going around gang-raping bunnies, one’s reaction would be something other than, “Oh, that makes me feel all blue and mopey.” Enh, but what do I know? *shrug*
PJI